06/14/1999

Interview with "ROSIE" filmakerPatrice Toye - Incest , Immigration, and the Insular European Cinema

by Prairie Miller

Incest has recently become an issue in European cinema, in movies like 'I Stand Alone' and 'Sitcom' from France, the Danish 'Celebration,' and now the grim but tender hearted Belgian coming of age tale 'Rosie.'

The longstanding cultural inbreeding characterizing Europe and combined with the explosive xenophobia, particularly as a backlash against recent waves of Third World immigration, are not unrelated to how these films draw on incest as a subject, and define the contemporary political and human condition.

In fact, all of the films in question deal with some aspect of a new European cultural diversity, and the difficulty or discomfort Europeans demonstrate in relating to people of color. Though 'Rosie' is somewhat of an exception in that it does not delve into the issue of multiculturalism, existing problematic conditions in Belgium itself in the present exert a potent influence on the story and its besieged characters.

A conversation I shared with Patrice Toye, the Flemish writer and director of 'Rosie' revealed much about the psychological trauma of the characters as a reflection of social and economic problems facing Belgium, including as well this tiny country^3s conflicted sentiments as the headquarters of NATO and the Euro Parliament. Added to that is the frightening political emergence during current elections of the fascist and racist Flemish Bloc (Vlaams Blok) under Johan Demol. There is even a regressive movement under way in this bilingual country with a substantial French population, to advance the ethnic purification of Flanders.

'Rosie' is the story of a sensitive thirteen year old who cultivates a world of overpowering and ultimately self-destructive fantasy to deal with a harsh life of poverty with her struggling single mother. As Rosie becomes more aware of her own disturbing incestuous origins, her need for a make believe loving male companion deepens, and he soon evolves into her accomplice as she acts out dangerous impulses against the world around her.

The themes in 'Rosie' are also revealing of life in Belgium today, including growing economic impoverishment and unemployment and the decline of industry. There is also a profound widespread demoralization expressed through personal internalization of the aggressor, both in terms of social authority and related to the presence of NATO on national soil. A concurrent cultural manifestation in movies might be termed a cinema of cruelty. Toye spoke at length on these subjects and their connection to her movie.

The Interview

Is Rosie in any sense autobiographical?
It is, to up to a certain point. If I said it wasn^3t autobiographical, that would be a lie. When I was a kid, I also had an imaginary friend myself. And it was a way for me to deal with things, because I was alone a lot of the time. You know, it helped me to have a friend, even if I had to make him up. My parents were divorced. In a situation like that, you have different feelings. You understand at an early age that some things aren^3t as easy as they seem to be. Like having a nice, warm family isn^3t so obvious as I had thought it would be. But that^3s pretty much it. I was a girl of thirteen once. I would have liked to have a prince, so I was often in front of my mirror making up stories. But not more than that..

Do you have any thoughts about why incest is a such a preoccupation of filmmakers right now?
I can't talk for other people, but I must say that in my own country for a long time, things were all kept a secret. Even if people knew about things like that, they didn't talk about them. You know, not hanging out the dirty laundry. It gets bad to hide things all the time. It's time to talk about things, and that's what has happened in Belgium lately. And that influences you, because you feel you should talk about subjects like that, even if they're so delicate. But there was a time when it was impossible. There was a big taboo to talk about things like that. Certainly in Belgium it was, being so Catholic. And we're not the kind of people, although we're a friendly people, who show everything. We're not so open, you know?

Belgium is a nation of two cultures, Flemish and French. Why do you make films exclusively about Flemish culture?
It's my native culture, I come from the Flemish part. But also, I get support from the Flemish government. That's a little bit of a nationalistic thing they do. Then you're forced to work in Flemish. If you get money from them, you have to be using their language. You know, it's a way to preserve their culture. I don't like it though. We're so small that we should be happy the way we are, and not divided. Why be so small and still want to be divided? People think of me as Flemish, but I always say no, I'm Belgian, I come from Belgium. Belgium is so small, there's not even as many people living in Belgium as in New York.

How did the story for Rosie come to you?
I made up the story. I followed my intuition and I used my fantasy. What I'm doing, I'm the last person to realize. It's like you will see these things before I do, because I'm so close to it. But it's not that I deny my roots, because that's where I come from. It's in the way we speak and act, it's something you can't explain. It's like I said, we're the kind of people who don't like to hang out our dirty laundry. There's a lot of secrets, and there's been a lot of chaos in our government lately. Like, things were covered up, you know corruption. And there are all these things that are coming out now, but I'm so close to it, that I guess I'm a reflection of it without knowing it. I don't stand still and think of it, you know? You do, but I'm doing it without knowing it.

What about geography as destiny? Are the characters a reflection and product of the north? I guess the sadness that is in the film and qualities that are depressing, that comes with the weather. It's like raining ten or eleven months of the year. And that brings a certain sadness to Belgium, which lies close to the sea in the north. It's always cold and dark, and that reflects in your soul. It makes you less of a happy person. And when we have a sunny day, we're all changed, our moods are changed immediately. No, but it's true, it really influences us. For example, Belgium has the highest rate of young people killing themselves than in all of Europe. That's really weird, I think.

I understand there is a current political movement in Belgium to criminalize abortion. Is there a connection to this punitive attitude that exists in your film, because the mother in the story gives birth to what is a product of incest?
Yes, it would have been impossible, I guess. The film takes place at the end of the 1970's and the beginning of the 1980's. Rosie would have been born during the 1960's. But we have always gotten everything a little bit later, including flower power! Because Belgium is always a little bit behind. And I guess at that time, she would have been so ashamed. And you couldn't even talk about abortion, which is terrible, of course. But she was ashamed, and had to keep it a secret from people.

Are the characters or story a reflection of the current economic crisis in Belgium?
I'm thinking in particular of the fact that the family faces poverty, and the brother is unemployed and turns to gambling. Yes, in parts of the country there is lots of unemployment, and there is becoming a bigger difference between rich and poor again. There was a time when it was better, and now there is a bigger difference growing. But the Flemish are getting richer and the French are getting poorer, and I don't think that's good. There should be more equalizing. But I'm not political, I can only reflect on it in how it moves people, and changes their acts and deeds and the way they live. But it exists, if you have to live in a small area and a social background like that one. And when you all have to survive together in one small space, you get problems of course. And if you don't have money, you have to get it from somewhere else, like gambling or from a boyfriend. For lots of people, they really fall out of the social system, and then it's like there's nothing any more, it's really terrible. It's not like we've come to the point where we have a lot of homeless people, but if we go on this way, it won't take long.

Does the choice of what is an actual abandoned refinery as the key setting in the film, where all hope is finally lost, have any significance as far the real decline and destruction of traditional industry in Belgium?
It was a metaphor to show that the inside life of the characters in the film is so empty, that everything around them is dead. They can't communicate with one another. That arid land and the factories disappearing, there's not much hope or perspective. So things are pretty much dead or not working around them. And of course if you look at it in a social way, why are there so many problems in that little family? Because they have difficulty in surviving. Because there used to be thriving industry, but it's not working any more. The working class is going down, really going down, and that's bad. So the brother is unemployed and he goes gambling, things like that of course.

Talk about the very controversial upcoming Flemish elections. I hear the Flemish Bloc is fasicst, and that they have a very strong following. They are advocating the termination of national bilingualism, a blood law (loi de sang) to favor native born over naturalized Belgians, a ban on strikes and higher taxation for immigrants.
Yes they are, and it is terrible. I must say I'm getting quite scared and I'm getting to be quite ashamed of my country. Because where I live in Antwerp, the Flemish Bloc is the biggest political party.

Why is this so?
Because people are afraid of the strangers, the immigrants. People want them out. They try to claim that immigrants are making the country unsafe. They just scare people, and then people get scared and vote for them. The Flemish Bloc loves Hitler, they're like nazis. But they have sweetened their image, they have become wolves disguised as lambs. Now they have this nice way of talking, and they have tried to conceal their past. It's really terrible, and frightening. I am afraid of how people will vote. But to be honest, I don't think the situation will get any better. I think even more people will start voting for them. Because they are blaming even unemployment on the immigrants. They're racists against these people, many of whom are Black, and any people of a different color. Yeah, they're pretty much against all of them, They think just white is good. It's terrible the way they think. All the other political parties are against the Flemish Bloc, but more and more they are succumbing to pressure, and they are taking over some of their ideas. Like now it is popular to advocate not giving foreigners the right to vote, and so right now they can't vote. What is good though is that a lot of artists are coming together and standing up against it. I am also helping in this effort. But it doesn't change a lot. Because people are encouraged to get scared, and then vote for the Flemish Bloc.

Have you made any observations about the side effects on the Belgian people of having NATO stationed there in Brussels, especially during such an explosive time now with the political situation now in Europe?
It's a very confusing time. And I think Brussels has become much more impersonal. Because the city is becoming so international, Belgians are leaving Brussels, and other European people are moving in. And that's a sad thing.